SylviaB
Just Bee Yourself 🐝
This is utterly moronic. Something is only "true" to someone if they believe it. They cannot "fully understand its truth" and also not believe it to be true.
Does God exist? (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter MoonlightSonata
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B1andB2
oui oui baguette
I wrote its truth.
The possessive indicates that I am referring to what the religion truly stipulates.
If you need to use pejorative diction (eg utterly moronic) to establish some sort of credibility and nitpick at my word choices to sweep the bulk of my answer to your claim i.e evidence from the Quran under the rug then don’t even bother replying.
I do question why I bother though.
Then why send messengers at all? Just let the people be unaware. No one would go to hell.
And if you are going to send messengers why not send one to all the untouched tribes who never got one? If it’s the true way to live life everyone at least deserves the knowledge on how to live it properly including the ‘unlearned’. God is the creator so he could’ve easily made that happen.
B1andB2
oui oui baguette
To not let people be aware so that everyone can be saved from hell defeats the purpose of free will. Why then would god have created the earth if everyone was to go to heaven? One chooses whether they want to believe in God or not, act according to their own conscience until the Day of Judgement.
51:56:
“I have not created men except that they should serve Me”
23:115:
“Did you think that We had created you in play (without any purpose) and that you would not be brought back to us?”
God created man to serve Him, meaning that men should believe in the One Lord and do well. This is the main objective of human life. A test.
17:15:
“We do not punish [any community] until We have sent [it] an apostle.”
This means that those who have never had a full authentic hearing of the religion cannot be blamed, one might say, for their “invincible ignorance” (catholic term). Today, these tribes that you are talking about, we can both agree, comprise a minute population of the human population. Consequently they are not punished. And while they might not be aware today or tomorrow, a time will come where they will become exposed to the outer world as humanity continues with its advancements.
God can make anything happen, but that defeats the purpose of free will and so to follow, the concept of heaven and hell.
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Ice-Cream-Man
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That did not answer the latter question.
If god created man to serve him and he is all knowing he would know that millions of people like the indigenous Australians would die unlearned as they would not be exposed to it and therefore would not even be aware of the opportunity to serve god. Kinda defeats the whole purpose in only making a portion of the world aware of it. It’s highly contradictory.
Also sending messengers to Indigenous Australians would not be defeating free will at all. God sent messengers to a portion of the world as it without infringing on the free will of humans and so there’s no rational reason not to send one to tribes like the indigenous Australians who had no idea about this at all.
Even if right now there’s not many untouched tribes miliions or even billions of people have died through the centuries without ever being exposed to it and given the opportunity to serve god. Still contradictory that a god that is all knowing would send messengers to a portion of the world and say that all man is made to serve god while simultaneously not sending messengers to places that weren’t/aren’t touched for centuries. Defeats the whole purpose of the verse that we were made to serve god because if these tribes current and past were never exposed to information of god why would they serve god?
SylviaB
Just Bee Yourself 🐝
Free will demonstrably and clearly does not exist though
B1andB2
oui oui baguette
There are many indigenous Australian muslims. Not too sure what your point is about indigenous Australians being unaware??
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However overtime they will become aware, as evident by ^^
“invincible ignorance” is not eternal as you’re making it out to be
sending messengers doesn’t defeat free will, but your argument: why doesn’t god let everyone be aware/unaware to save them from hell does.
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There were none before Australia was colonized. Before that millions did die without serving god. If all man is made to serve god why would god not give the same information through messengers to THOSE tribes. This is not just for Australians but for any tribes. Overtime they will become aware but after many have already died being unaware because they weren't sent a messenger. That's the point and it has not been addressed yet. The question is not that they will eventually become aware. Many will die unaware before that community becomes aware due to not being sent a messenger. Only reason Indigenous Australians are aware now is because it has been colonized.
B1andB2
oui oui baguette
They died unaware and thus they will not be punished for not serving their purpose due to “invincible ignorance” (I keep saying this term because it describes it well)
You’re going around in circles, Dr dusk.
The information spreads. God doesn’t just instill it. Islam started very small, and grew as people accepted it with their will.
Your not getting my point. Verse says we're born to serve god, yet some millions of people died never serving god because they were never told about it and not because they chose not to. That defeats the whole purpose of the verse. That just means it's not the purpose of all humans to serve god. The point isn't if they're punished or not but that they were never shown the purpose of life which is to serve god even when god says that that's their purpose in the verse. How is it the purpose of all humans to serve god when all humans aren't shown the relevant information about that purpose before they die?, even if they aren't punished.
God is all knowing and so it would've been a much more inclusive strategy if god sent messengers to these untouched communities but they never got one and so never got the information/opportunity to serve the god which says that's their purpose. These tribes could've accepted god with their own free will as well and not been left out.
B1andB2
oui oui baguette
The purpose is to serve god. One can only do so if they are aware of religion.
Hence, those who have died due to invincible ignorance do not get punished, as they were not able to be exposed to religion. However, over time, as evident through the Indigenous Australian community, the information becomes accessible and it is at that stage where God tests whether one believes or disbelieves, and that is when the verse comes in.
I have already stated earlier why God does not just « enlighten » everyone.
And I have already stated that Islam started off very small, in the period of « Quraysh » in which monotheism did not exist and everyone who is Muslim today is as a result of the people who were once unaware, becoming aware.
Ya going on circles. I'm 100% sure you know exactly what I'm asking imao but just every time I ask this question to anyone from any religion I can never get a straight answer.
How is it the purpose of all humans to serve god when all humans aren't shown the relevant information about that purpose before they die?, even if they aren't punished.
That is the question. God doesn't have to enlighten everyone and I never said anything about that. God sent Jesus as a messenger to a certain part of the world right? Why didn't god send a messenger like that to other regions that were untouched as well?
B1andB2
oui oui baguette
It started with a few messengers, and it has grown to billions.
What makes you underestimate the power of information being spread overtime? It’s not a race?
The Quran itself was revealed gradually.
The fact that there are still tribes who are uncontacted and never serve god.
I'm not making any point around information spreading over time. A few messengers to certain parts of the world is how it started. An inclusive strategy that would lead all people at that time to the information of god would've been to send more messengers to parts that were untouched so those people could've had the opportunity to accept god but they were left without ever having the opportunity to know their true purpose in life.
Still this How is it the purpose of all humans to serve god when all humans aren't shown the relevant information about that purpose before they die?, even if they aren't punished.
Alawite Muslims can answer this question perhaps better than Sunni and Shia Muslims, despite their conflicting beliefs.
Alawites believe they must undergo repeated reincarnation before going to heaven. Assuming this is true, all spirits in this world will be born again as different individuals. This process will keep occurring until a person is finally ready to go to heaven (which probably implies that they will eventually accept Islam's message). This means that every person, including those who died and did not get a chance to be provided with the relevant information will eventually become aware of it.
Now this is the kind of answer I'm looking for though that's a very specific 'sect'? of the religion I suppose, but the question still applies to all other religions or sects who don't have that sort of 'requirement'.
B1andB2
oui oui baguette
This is your initial argument reworded differently? Which is why I’m standing by my same answers.
It’s not a strategy that God is playing by. It is more so a process.
It starts of small and overtime people get the opportunity to accept or deny it, which is when God sees whether they have accepted their “role” or not, inviting the concept of heaven and hell.
If god was to send messengers everywhere so that everyone can immediately be enlightened he might as well make everyone Muslim to begin with. Again, I have already explained how this does not align with free will.
it is because god is aware that there are people who will die before they become in contact with religion that 17:15 exists.
And it is because this invincible ignorance is not eternal that the other verse exists. (51:56)
Well this really does not answer the question. If sending messengers to one part of the world is free will sending them to all parts of the world should still be free will.
In any case leaving all that it still defeats the purpose of serving god being the purpose of all humans life.
B1andB2
oui oui baguette
What is the point of sending messengers everywhere when the information will eventually reach it?
You’re probably going to say “to serve the purpose that we are made for God”
But I have just stated that this purpose becomes apparent when one had the opportunity to either reject or accept religion,
The purpose of this verse is not as you’re making it out to be, where God could strategically make the revelation all happen at once to gain followers. I’ve said earlier, it’s not a race, it’s a process as evident through the fact that the Quran itself was revealed overtime and the religion itself grew overtime.